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    Smoother Dynamic Crossfades

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    • Robert PuzaR
      Robert Puza @d.healey
      last edited by

      This post is deleted!
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      • VirtualVirginV
        VirtualVirgin
        last edited by VirtualVirgin

        Sample Modeling instruments do essentially what you are asking about here, so it's definitely do-able.

        "All Samplemodeling instruments exploit Dr. Giorgio Tommasini’s patented 'Harmonic Alignment' technique, which ensures for the first time seamless transitions across virtually infinite dynamics, from pianissimo to fortissimo."

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        About Us - Samplemodeling

        ABOUT US a look inside the company More than 20 years of research and development A story of innovation and dedication aimed at helping musicians and composers to freely express their musical ideas. How it all started Samplers and synthesizers have been for decades the cornerstones of virtual music. The virtues and drawbacks of each […]

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        Samplemodeling (www.samplemodeling.com)

        I can't seem to find any more information on the patent, but if I come across something I will post it.

        You should probably ask Aaron Venture some questions, as his instruments are doing something similar:

        "Phase-aligned samples result in no perceived cross-fades between the layers; the response is smooth, musical, and sounds like the real thing."

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        Infinite Brass — Aaron Venture

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        d.healeyD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • d.healeyD
          d.healey @VirtualVirgin
          last edited by d.healey

          @VirtualVirgin said in Smoother Dynamic Crossfades:

          I can't seem to find any more information on the patent, but if I come across something I will post it.

          I have asked them directly about this and they have not responded. As far as I can tell there is no patent. But if there was a patent, which they say was filed in 2004, then it expired this year (assuming it's filed in the US and they didn't get any extension).

          Harmonic alignment/phase alignment is not the same as morphing. There are a number of methods for phase alignment, I have a tool that will phase align sustain samples, you can also achieve pretty much perfect phase alignment by flattening the pitches of samples, but it does remove some of the humanity from them so you need to add it back with modulators.

          Libre Wave - Freedom respecting instruments and effects
          My Patreon - HISE tutorials
          YouTube Channel - Public HISE tutorials

          HISEnbergH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • Robert PuzaR
            Robert Puza @Christoph Hart
            last edited by Robert Puza

            @Christoph-Hart That's amazing. Hise still surprises me.

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            • HISEnbergH
              HISEnberg @d.healey
              last edited by

              Thanks for sharing the video @d-healey !

              I think phase alignment is more of an immediate concern for me, personally. Spectral morphing (which would be a bit different then harmonic alignement) sounds like a cool topic, but I imagine i would just go down the wavetable route to accomplish a similar result.

              You said you have a "tool" that does this, is this a HISE script which will track the 0-crossings of the sample and delay the transitions of one note to the next (similar to what is described in the Ivy video)?

              I am trying to wrap my head around how this would be accomplished. Would you use three different Samplers to enact that transition, or are you able to accomplish it using Round Robins?

              I am picturing having to write a MIDI processor that would:

              • Track the sample’s playback position.
              • Detect zero-crossings in real-time.
              • Trigger a phase-aligned transition when a new MIDI note is received.

              Am I on the right track or is this over-thought and you have a better method?

              d.healeyD clevername27C 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • d.healeyD
                d.healey @HISEnberg
                last edited by d.healey

                @HISEnberg It's a standalone application I commissioned a few years ago. It takes in multiple samples of different dynamics and outputs the same samples phase aligned to each other. It's not perfect, sometimes the attacks sound a bit weird, but most of the time it does a good job.

                @HISEnberg said in Smoother Dynamic Crossfades:

                Would you use three different Samplers to enact that transition, or are you able to accomplish it using Round Robins?

                I use the built in group crossfade feature.

                If you want to build a similar thing in HISE I think Loris would be your friend.

                Libre Wave - Freedom respecting instruments and effects
                My Patreon - HISE tutorials
                YouTube Channel - Public HISE tutorials

                HISEnbergH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • HISEnbergH
                  HISEnberg @d.healey
                  last edited by

                  @d-healey yes thank you.

                  I was just re reading the post on @iamlamprey NEATBRAIN system to see if I could gain some insights on this topic. I haven't really dug into Loris but this seems like a proper opportunity to do so.

                  ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • ?
                    A Former User @HISEnberg
                    last edited by

                    @HISEnberg NEATBrain doesn't use any crossfading shenanigans, it just loops a single cycle at its fundamental frequency to simulate a wavetable synth

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                    • clevername27C
                      clevername27 @d.healey
                      last edited by

                      @d-healey Isn't morphing just interpolating between the amplitudes of FFT bins?

                      d.healeyD HISEnbergH 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • d.healeyD
                        d.healey @clevername27
                        last edited by

                        @clevername27 I don't know

                        Libre Wave - Freedom respecting instruments and effects
                        My Patreon - HISE tutorials
                        YouTube Channel - Public HISE tutorials

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                        • Robert PuzaR
                          Robert Puza @Christoph Hart
                          last edited by

                          @Christoph-Hart When I HEARD your snippet - I knew I wanted that filter for sustain. Harm. Filter is suuuuper 👍

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                          • modularsamplesM
                            modularsamples
                            last edited by modularsamples

                            Excuse my naivety on the subject, but In scriptnode alone we have the ability record, analyse and import wavs, generate sine waves and have extremely large sliderpacks (if I recall, this was bumped up to something like 4000+ in a recent update). All the important stuff needed for spectral resynthesis, no?

                            HISEnbergH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • HISEnbergH
                              HISEnberg @clevername27
                              last edited by

                              @clevername27 I have generally understood it this way, though I think there are a lot of methodologies. From what I can tell there isn't a standard for spectral morphing.

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                              • HISEnbergH
                                HISEnberg @modularsamples
                                last edited by

                                @modularsamples Hypothetically, yes, I think this would be extremely complex and CPU intensive to implement though.

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                                • clevername27C
                                  clevername27 @HISEnberg
                                  last edited by clevername27

                                  @HISEnberg @modularsamples @Christoph-Hart @Robert-Puza @d-healey I don't know if this is helpful – I'm using additive synthesis for the sustain portion of my sounds, without phase issues. Here's a screen-capture movie with sound.

                                  eb60b675-6e9c-46ed-9e98-3e46dbc3bfb1-image.png
                                  4dd5d891-7ba5-48a9-87c1-ba4f2e5bdd31-image.png

                                  modularsamplesM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                  • modularsamplesM
                                    modularsamples @clevername27
                                    last edited by

                                    @clevername27 Nice, that ring is really pleasing. This is kind of attention to detail that I aspire to.

                                    Just gonna throw this into the mix:

                                    Design and Run Real-time Spectral Processing on the Web with Faust
                                    https://inria.hal.science/hal-04507625/document

                                    And to rewind a bit, what about an equal power crossfade? Shouldn't that be a bit more forgiving when using material that' s not been phase aligned? I used to do this all the time in Logics EXS24 and the equal power fade was almost always the way to go.

                                    d.healeyD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • d.healeyD
                                      d.healey @modularsamples
                                      last edited by

                                      @modularsamples said in Smoother Dynamic Crossfades:

                                      what about an equal power crossfade?

                                      EP crossfade it the standard approach that's been used for many years for dynamic layers. It doesn't solve the chorusing issue though which is why phase-alignment (or audio morphing) is necessary. I should say that this is mostly an issue for solo instruments, with ensembles it's less of a problem.

                                      Libre Wave - Freedom respecting instruments and effects
                                      My Patreon - HISE tutorials
                                      YouTube Channel - Public HISE tutorials

                                      modularsamplesM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • modularsamplesM
                                        modularsamples @d.healey
                                        last edited by

                                        @d-healey I notice it quite a bit with synthesised samples too, hence my interest, even more annoying is the tendency for crossfaded sounds to have volume dip between layers. Smoothing helps a bit (smoothed parameter in low pass mode in particular) but it's always there to some extent.

                                        It's a shame physical modelling (of real instruments) never really fulfilled it's promise, but then many of us might not be here, or maybe we'd be talking about HIPME.

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