HISE Logo Forum
    • Categories
    • Register
    • Login

    Spectral Morphing in HISE

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Questions
    31 Posts 12 Posters 1.3k Views
    Loading More Posts
    • Oldest to Newest
    • Newest to Oldest
    • Most Votes
    Reply
    • Reply as topic
    Log in to reply
    This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
    • HISEnbergH
      HISEnberg @mmprod
      last edited by HISEnberg

      @mmprod It's on my bucket list to do a deep dive into the Loris library, which I think has the solution. I have only scratched the surface here, but it is seriously impressive what it can do. My understanding with Loris is that it can't be used for live processing (though I could very well be mistaken on this).

      RNBO, unless they have updated their FFT objects, would be my go to but from experience I know it is not useable. Otherwise the task probably involves some external C++ which is not a simple feat. I wonder if @griffinboy , the GOAT for external C++ implementation has looked into it?

      griffinboyG 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
      • griffinboyG
        griffinboy @HISEnberg
        last edited by griffinboy

        @HISEnberg

        spectral? Haha it's on my list but I've never done it before. I'm very interested in linking up neural networks to spectral synthesis in the future but I've not got an external node for that yet : )

        Most of my finished nodes are for analog modelling, filters, compressors, etc.

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • clevername27C
          clevername27 @Christoph Hart
          last edited by clevername27

          @Christoph-Hart said in Spectral Morphing in HISE:

          "Now that we've invented electricity, where are the self-driving cars"?

          Are you Elon Musk?

          A 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • A
            aaronventure @clevername27
            last edited by

            @clevername27 It's funny how even on this forum I cannot get away from hearing about this fucker.

            clevername27C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
            • clevername27C
              clevername27 @aaronventure
              last edited by clevername27

              @aaronventure Right?

              "OK, I found HISE on the internet. Why isn't my plugin finished?" — Phoney Stark

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
              • hisefiloH
                hisefilo @Christoph Hart
                last edited by

                @Christoph-Hart

                Got stuck on this:

                lorisManager.process(file, "morph", ??????????
                

                I'm implementing dilate without issues

                lorisManager.process(file, "dilate", dilatePoints);	
                

                Is "morph" available as "dilate" and "shiftPitch" are?

                Hope you can shed some light on this topic :)

                clevername27C hisefiloH 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • clevername27C
                  clevername27 @hisefilo
                  last edited by clevername27

                  @hisefilo @aaronventure I'm thinking you can just use the FFT object in HISE, in real-time. Anything more than crossfading between the amplitudes may be too much, though. Use straight C or C++ for any sort of real DSP.

                  Take DFTs of the source and destination. Measure the amplitude (i.e., magnitude) difference between each of the buckets. Crossfade between them. There are some phase issues, but given your application, I they may not matter.

                  I haven't looked at HISE's object, but assuming it just takes in audio stream, and returns buckets, we're only talking about a few lines of code in HISEscript. Just ensure that you start and finish the matrices at the same time. I can go into more detail.

                  I have taken a look—yes, it's just a few lines a code to do what you want. Preallocate your buffers; it looks like prepare will do that. The setMagnitudeFunction call looks like it lets you define a single function to process the bins, which is helpful in your case, because ostensibly, you want to do the same thing to all of them. I'm not clear what process does. Depending on what you want to do, the windowing function doesn't matter. You may wish to play around with the weighting of the bins, as the ear responds differently to different frequencies. Again, I'm not sure what you want to achieve, perceptually, but see if you perform your tasks without worrying about phase—you need to process the bins as quickly as possible, as HISEscript is not optimal for this. Use setEnableInverseFFT to reconstruct the signal.

                  All that being said, I would suggest listening to examples of spectral morphing. Much of the time, it's indistinguishable from simply crossfading the summed audio signals.

                  Start with what you want to achieve, perceptually, and work backwards from there.

                  ustkU 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • ustkU
                    ustk @clevername27
                    last edited by

                    @clevername27 said in Spectral Morphing in HISE:

                    All that being said, I would suggest listening to examples of spectral morphing. Much of the time, it's indistinguishable from simply crossfading the summed audio signals.

                    That's what I was thinking, if you crossfade between to FFTs, that'll be the same as crossfading gains in time domain.

                    Also, let say you do not apply the same weight to different bins. Wouldn't this be equivalent to filtering both signals before applying a crossfade in the time domain?

                    There are some phase issues...

                    Yeah I've seen this here and there when starting to play with magnitude ins... But in that case, wouldn't crossfading the phase bins at the same time as magnitude ones prevent any issues?

                    Can't help pressing F5 in the forum...

                    clevername27C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • clevername27C
                      clevername27 @ustk
                      last edited by clevername27

                      @ustk said in Spectral Morphing in HISE:

                      That's what I was thinking, if you crossfade between to FFTs, that'll be the same as crossfading gains in time domain.

                      While perceptually, there may be little difference, I wouldn't quite characterise it as being the same. I'm still a little unclear about "spectral morphing", as I'm not aware of it as a formal term. In as much as I can surmise your purpose, one way to think of the distinction is that cross-fading amplitudes occurs in the time domain, while cross-fading FFT bins could be characterised as occurring the frequency domain.

                      Also, let say you do not apply the same weight to different bins. Wouldn't this be equivalent to filtering both signals before applying a crossfade in the time domain?

                      I would suggest applying different weighting, as auditory processing is not strictly linear in terms of frequency response.

                      Yeah I've seen this here and there when starting to play with magnitude ins... But in that case, wouldn't crossfading the phase bins at the same time as magnitude ones prevent any issues?

                      It's a good question, but I want to avoid wading into the phase issues of DFT as they are non-trivial. I would suggest starting with a simple interpolation of magnitudes between frequency bins.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • hisefiloH
                        hisefilo @hisefilo
                        last edited by hisefilo

                        @clevername27 hello professor! sorry for the delay. And for my lack of preparation!
                        I want to achieve this kind of morph https://www.cerlsoundgroup.org/Kelly/sounds/trumpetcry.wav

                        I actually want to start trying to use amplitudes from one audio with freqs from the other one to see what happens.
                        I can see Loris already prepares freqs and amps for morphing when I do

                        lorisManager.createEnvelopePaths(file, "frequency", 1);
                        
                        Interface: distilling 24314 Partials
                        Interface: sifting 24314 Partials
                        Interface: collating 24330 Partials
                        Interface: distilling 24266 Partials
                        Interface: sifting 24266 Partials
                        Interface: collating 24276 Partials
                        Interface: channelizing 24330 Partials
                        Interface: channelizing 24276 Partials
                        Interface: Prepare partial list for morphing
                        

                        And this is how it's made on C++ but can replicate on HISE.
                        Going the FFT way is much harder for my level I guess.

                        #include "loris.h"
                        
                        #include <stdio.h>
                        #include <stdlib.h>
                        #include <strings.h>
                        
                        int main( void )
                        {
                           #define BUFSZ (3*44100)
                           double samples[ BUFSZ ]; /* clarinet is about 3 seconds */
                           unsigned int N = 0;
                           
                           PartialList * clar = createPartialList();
                           PartialList * flut = createPartialList();
                           LinearEnvelope * reference = 0;
                           LinearEnvelope * pitchenv = createLinearEnvelope();
                        
                           LinearEnvelope * morphenv = createLinearEnvelope();
                           PartialList * mrph = createPartialList();   
                        
                           double flute_times[] = {0.4, 1.};
                           double clar_times[] = {0.2, 1.};
                           double tgt_times[] = {0.3, 1.2};
                           
                           
                           /* import the raw clarinet partials */
                           printf( "importing clarinet partials\n" );
                           importSdif( "clarinet.sdif", clar );
                              
                           /* channelize and distill */
                           printf( "distilling\n" );
                           reference = createF0Estimate( clar, 350, 450, 0.01 );
                           channelize( clar, reference, 1 );
                           distill( clar );
                           destroyLinearEnvelope( reference );
                           reference = 0;
                              
                           /* shift pitch of clarinet partials */
                           printf( "shifting pitch of clarinet partials down by 600 cents\n" );
                           linearEnvelope_insertBreakpoint( pitchenv, 0, -600 );
                           shiftPitch( clar, pitchenv );
                           destroyLinearEnvelope( pitchenv );
                           pitchenv = 0;
                           
                           /* import the raw flute partials */
                           printf( "importing flute partials\n" );
                           importSdif( "flute.sdif", flut );
                           
                           /* channelize and distill */
                           printf( "distilling\n" );
                           reference = createF0Estimate( flut, 250, 320, 0.01 );
                           channelize( flut, reference, 1 );
                           distill( flut );
                           destroyLinearEnvelope( reference );
                           reference = 0;
                        
                           /* align onsets */
                           printf( "dilating sounds to align onsets\n" );
                           dilate( clar, clar_times, tgt_times, 2 );
                           dilate( flut, flute_times, tgt_times, 2 );
                           
                           /* perform morph */
                           printf( "morphing clarinet with flute\n" );
                           linearEnvelope_insertBreakpoint( morphenv, 0.6, 0 );
                           linearEnvelope_insertBreakpoint( morphenv, 2, 1 );
                           morph( clar, flut, morphenv, morphenv, morphenv, mrph );
                           
                           /* synthesize and export samples */
                           printf( "synthesizing %lu morphed partials\n", 
                                   partialList_size( mrph ) );
                           N = synthesize( mrph, samples, BUFSZ, 44100 );
                           exportAiff( "morph.aiff", samples, N, 44100, 16 );
                           
                           /* cleanup */
                           destroyPartialList( mrph );
                           destroyPartialList( clar );
                           destroyPartialList( flut );
                           destroyLinearEnvelope( morphenv );
                           
                           printf( "Done, bye.\n\n" );
                           return 0;
                        }
                        
                        clevername27C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • clevername27C
                          clevername27 @hisefilo
                          last edited by clevername27

                          @hisefilo Sure, I will try to help you out here. Off the bat, I'm not too familiar with Loris, other it sounds like a Dr. a Doctor Seuss character. Looking at your code, it looks a lot like C, and that's a good thing.

                          A Choice of Language

                          Loris is a C++ library, but you can access using C, and I suggest you do this.

                          The thing about C is that everything you see usually has one meaning, and that meaning is not contextual. In contrast, there's C++, where the same snippet of code can do 100 different things. So C++ is great to program in, and terrible if you're trying to understand what some other developer has wrought. (Although not as bad as LISP, a language entirely designed for computer science students to write recursive decent parsers with.)

                          The other thing about C++ is what I call Bill's Law: C++ is sufficiently that no one person knows everything it does. The inverse is also true: it's possible to write C++ that is remarkably clear in its form and function. But if you're a C++ programmer who does this, then sadly, you don't exist.

                          So why does C code (generally) only do one thing? To make writing a C compiler easier. Specifically, so it can be easily translated to assembler language. Back when C was designed, processors were slow, and memory was capricious; so if you wanted things to run quickly (i.e., be compiled) you needed to do it quickly and efficiently. (Everybody has a great idea for a computer language until they need to write the compiler for it.)

                          OK, so why is this relevant for morphing sound? Because even if you're brand new to procedural programming, because writing C, and understanding C, are easier than working in C++. And because I’m trying to hide the fact that I know little about Loris, so I’m talking about things I might know.

                          A First Look at the Code

                          So, let's take a look at this code. I’m a little unclear how it morphs sound. For starters, I don’t see anything about the window size or window function. I’m looking for something like:

                          analyzer_configure( resolution, width );

                          Wait, What Exactly is Morphing?

                          But let’s take a step back. How does morphing work?

                          One way to represent sound is as many, many sine waves. Depending on how loud each one of them is (and how that volume changes over time), you get either a piano or the sound of Bill Evans cursing because he can't get his code to compile.

                          So, you can:

                          1. Decompose a sound into a set of partials.
                          2. Then, a miracle occurs.
                          3. Put the altered partials back together.

                          In Loris terminology, they call this additive synthesis. But I think that’s being charitable—to me, additive synthesis means literally using sine waves. And if the folks at Loris have figured out how to decompose sounds into perfect sine waves, then they folks working on quantum mechanics will want to have a word with them.

                          In your code example, partials look to be contextualised FFT bins. In that case, each partial actually represents many, many partials. Usually. Because the interesting thing about a flute is that you can represent it with a small number of partials. And that's why computer science students hate flutes…because by the end of their degree, they've re-synthesised them a hundred times.

                          Clarinets, on the other hand, are pure evil. (Have you ever met someone who plays them?)

                          Representing Sound as FFT Partials

                          So, the first thing we want to do, if we’re morphing sound, is to specify how we’re going to represent it. FFTs (or DFTs, to be technical about it) are a remarkably imprecise way to describe sound. The advantage is that you get a lot of information about amplitude and frequency.

                          One of the downsides is that the more precision you get with one (frequency or time), the less you get with the other. Plus, each FFT bucket has a splash zone (“smearing”) that leaks into the other buckets. Honestly. it’s amazing you can put it all back together and get the exact same sound.

                          So that will morph sound. But the results probably won’t sound very good.

                          Loris to the Rescue

                          And that’s where Loris shines, because its algorithms are constructed and tuned specifically for sound morphing. So, instead of using (say) a Blackman Harris windowing function, they use Kaiser–Bessel. What is a windowing function? In Loris, you don’t need to know (since there’s only one), so we don’t need to cover that.

                          Loris also determines many of the necessary parameters automatically, such as dealing with uneven frequency representation across the spectrum.

                          That still leaves a bunch of parameters you do need to specify, and some are specifically related to getting pleasant-sounding morphs.

                          The most important (arguably) specifies how our sounds will be represented. In Loris, they call this the Analysis parameters. But everyone else calls them the FFT parameters.

                          Frequency Resolution

                          Let’s look at the first parameter: Frequency Resolution. Imagine chopping up a sound into equally-sized chunks of sound.

                          To do that, let’s take a Kaiser windowed FFT of a flute. We’ll use SpectraLayers, because I get a royalty check. Above, we see a familiar representation using only amplitude information. Below, is a DFT-derived representation.

                          34c352fd-792a-4c92-8b3e-f95bb4a05f4f-image.png

                          Each of those bars represents a partial. A partial represents a single sine wave. In most DFT-derived visualisations, each of these lines actually represents many partials. But with flutes, it's much closer to a 1-to-1 representation. (An additional reason for the clarity of the FFT is that SpectraLayer's creator, Robin Lobel, is very clever. He's using several high-speed optimisation techniques.)

                          Let's enlarge the FFT.

                          7732a61c-4eda-421f-9537-610b02bc3fba-Screenshot 2025-02-17 at 11.27.27 am.png

                          On the rights, you can see what frequencies are represented by the partials on the left. Amplitude is represented by colour, with white being the loudest. And time goes from left to right.

                          Now, let's look at that in 3D, so the height of a partial represents its amplitude.

                          64d801d9-a0d0-4cd3-aea6-99b379e491ad-Screenshot 2025-02-17 at 11.27.38 am.png

                          Let's restrict the colour spectrum of our flute to green:

                          0c2336b7-d11c-4207-9e1c-015ac9295a5f-image.png

                          Let's look at a shorter time span of this recording:

                          9512d62d-240d-4719-aeb1-f2dae95ba782-image.png

                          Now let's look at a clarinet and use orange to represent it:

                          289acb61-012d-474f-8d10-570a1b512dcd-image.png

                          Notice the clarinet is comprised of many more partials.

                          Now, I'll make a quick demonstration of a crossfade between the two. With audio!

                          That doesn't sound cool. All of the partials are changing volume at the same rate. Boo!

                          Changing the FFT Bin Size

                          Wait, what's a bin? When we deconstruct a sound using an FFT, you end up with a grid of sounds. In Loris terminology, they're partials. Which are definitely not. We'll call them Bins.

                          Depending on the dimensions of the bins, we get either more frequency resolution, or more amplitude resolution. Or, to put it another way, the number of bins that you use, for dividing up the spectrum, designates the frequency resolution.

                          Wide Bings.png


                          NarrowBings.png

                          Let's change that in real-time:

                          ttttt.gif

                          You can see how—as the frequency resolution goes down, the time resolution goes up.

                          Back to Loris

                          Now we know something about FFT analysis parameters. And that takes us back to:

                          analyzer_configure( resolution, width );

                          I'm going to stop here for now.

                          ChazroxC griffinboyG hisefiloH 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 5
                          • ChazroxC
                            Chazrox @clevername27
                            last edited by Chazrox

                            @clevername27

                            other it sounds like a Dr. a Doctor Seuss character.

                            lol

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • griffinboyG
                              griffinboy @clevername27
                              last edited by griffinboy

                              @clevername27

                              Loris is additive. And it is possible to decompose sounds into sines. I did a crude job over the weekend. You use multiresolution FFT and then try and work out where the transients would have been using FFT reassignment. And then you increase the contrast of the spectrogram and track partials pitch, phase and amplitude over time, storing them in an array. You can then manipulate the partials in this array, and reconstruct the signal afterwards. The special thing that Loris does is that it can also analyse the noise components in a signal, which is beyond what my program can do.

                              I'm tempted to give in and just use Loris...

                              clevername27C hisefiloH 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • clevername27C
                                clevername27 @griffinboy
                                last edited by

                                @griffinboy That sounds really cool, and I'd to follow your progress. Regarding sine waves—we may be taking about two different things here. Deconstructing sound into perfect sine waves, is not something that I believe is possible with our current understandings of physics and mathematics. You can certainly decompose sound into things that act like sine waves, though. I like that Loris has so many optimisations built right into it.

                                griffinboyG 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • hisefiloH
                                  hisefilo @griffinboy
                                  last edited by

                                  @griffinboy have you done that on HISE? or python Loris?

                                  griffinboyG 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                  • griffinboyG
                                    griffinboy @clevername27
                                    last edited by

                                    @clevername27

                                    Maybe I'll post about it.
                                    Ah yes - you are correct. You can't simply break a sound into it's actual sine waves perfectly (although reading some of the latest research on fft, there are some algorithms that are so good at it that it almost doesn't matter, not that I've implemented those yet). It's more a case of applying multiple passes of different FFT techniques to construct a map of everything, and then try and rebuilt something close. But unless you do a ton of passes and maybe use the most complicated fft research, there will be information lost and resolution issues

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • griffinboyG
                                      griffinboy @hisefilo
                                      last edited by

                                      @hisefilo

                                      Yeah it's c++ hise.

                                      I mean, we have loris which is kind of better from the looks of it. Unless I decide to implement the latest research mine will not be better. But I can't say I care about additive to that extent. Maybe in the future I'll have a better reason to do all that work

                                      hisefiloH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                      • hisefiloH
                                        hisefilo @clevername27
                                        last edited by

                                        @clevername27 WOW!!!!!!!!!!! What a lesson. Love it. Will take the time it deserves! Thanks, mate. You are passionate!

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • hisefiloH
                                          hisefilo @griffinboy
                                          last edited by

                                          @griffinboy AFAIK, Loris does a cool job with noise-bandwidth, making many improvements to the good old residual noise + sines.

                                          Nice idea to use a C++ custom node instead of Loris HISE's API. Will try that!
                                          Thanks mate!

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • First post
                                            Last post

                                          42

                                          Online

                                          1.7k

                                          Users

                                          11.7k

                                          Topics

                                          102.3k

                                          Posts