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    Different Encryption Types in HISE?

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Scripting
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    • CasmatC
      Casmat @Christoph Hart
      last edited by Casmat

      @Christoph-Hart agree with @Lindon! ed25519 has a length of 256 but has the security of a rsa 3048 key

      i make music

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      • ustkU
        ustk @Christoph Hart
        last edited by

        @Christoph-Hart Don't know anything about this encryption, but if it can shorten the computation time significantly against the RSA2048 I'm definitely favourable to this change...

        Can't help pressing F5 in the forum...

        Christoph HartC 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • Christoph HartC
          Christoph Hart @ustk
          last edited by

          @ustk But when is this becoming a problem? Encoding a license key with a few hundred bytes is completely trivial and will never be a bottleneck and for big data you can use Blowfish?

          CasmatC LindonL ustkU 4 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • CasmatC
            Casmat @Christoph Hart
            last edited by

            @Christoph-Hart yeahhh, rsa doesn’t have any true limitation, it’s just the optimization/modernization that ed25519 has that makes it appealing

            i make music

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            • LindonL
              Lindon @Christoph Hart
              last edited by

              @Christoph-Hart said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

              @ustk But when is this becoming a problem? Encoding a license key with a few hundred bytes is completely trivial and will never be a bottleneck and for big data you can use Blowfish?

              it becomes a problem when the plugin wants to use a simple dont-call-home serial number system - we need to encrypt this in some way, and RSA 512 is too weak (apparently) so we use RSA 2048 - which yields a very long string for the user to enter...so any system that is as capable as RSA2048 but offers a smaller string for the end user to work with would be nice.

              HISE Development for hire.
              www.channelrobot.com

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              • ustkU
                ustk @Christoph Hart
                last edited by

                @Christoph-Hart On my end I use the PHP script you posted a while ago on the juce forum to encrypt the license. Using a 2048bit key takes approx. 10-15sec for the server to perform this task which seems a wee bit long.

                Is the server too weak? I don't think so
                Is the PHP script not optimised? Maybe...

                Can't help pressing F5 in the forum...

                Dan KorneffD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • Dan KorneffD
                  Dan Korneff @ustk
                  last edited by

                  @ustk said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

                  10-15sec for the server to perform this task

                  That sounds inane. I have a PHP script that took .3 seconds to execute, and it destroyed my server at scale.

                  Dan Korneff - Producer / Mixer / Audio Nerd

                  ustkU orangeO 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • ustkU
                    ustk @Dan Korneff
                    last edited by

                    @Dan-Korneff 😢

                    Can't help pressing F5 in the forum...

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                    • ustkU
                      ustk @Christoph Hart
                      last edited by

                      @Christoph-Hart Just ran some tests:

                      2048 -> 10sec
                      1024 -> 3sec
                      512 -> 1.5sec

                      Of course, these are the total times from plugin license manager demand to license file reception. But seeing the timing at 512bit, the transaction time is negligible.

                      Can't help pressing F5 in the forum...

                      LindonL 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • LindonL
                        Lindon @ustk
                        last edited by

                        @ustk could you also list the size of your generated key? Interested to find out if the encrypted key you send is bigger or smaller for each bit size...

                        HISE Development for hire.
                        www.channelrobot.com

                        ustkU 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • ustkU
                          ustk @Lindon
                          last edited by

                          @Lindon
                          2048 bit-> 2048 chars
                          1024 bit -> 1790 chars
                          512 bit -> 1658 chars

                          But I guess it's dependant on the size of the data you want to encrypt in the first place

                          Can't help pressing F5 in the forum...

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                          • orangeO
                            orange @Dan Korneff
                            last edited by orange

                            @Dan-Korneff said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

                            @ustk said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

                            10-15sec for the server to perform this task

                            That sounds inane. I have a PHP script that took .3 seconds to execute, and it destroyed my server at scale.

                            Considering that we are giving free products (even for a limited time, for the launch for example), hundreds, maybe thousands of users will attack the server for authentication. The server is fucked then :)

                            develop Branch / XCode 13.1
                            macOS Monterey / M1 Max

                            d.healeyD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • d.healeyD
                              d.healey @orange
                              last edited by

                              @orange Yup, I just see everyone trying to put bigger locks on a half open door. If someone wants in they don't care if it's 512 or 2048, they can get in anyway.

                              Libre Wave - Freedom respecting instruments and effects
                              My Patreon - HISE tutorials
                              YouTube Channel - Public HISE tutorials

                              LindonL 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • LindonL
                                Lindon @d.healey
                                last edited by Lindon

                                @d-healey said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

                                @orange Yup, I just see everyone trying to put bigger locks on a half open door. If someone wants in they don't care if it's 512 or 2048, they can get in anyway.

                                yeah, thats not really understanding the problem or the proposed solution.

                                You are right the door is half open.
                                You are not so right regarding 512 vs 2048

                                2048 - means they have to modify the code base
                                512 - means they can reverse engineer the private key and build a keygen

                                Any system that requires modifying and shipping a "hacked" version is better than one that only requires shipping a small key gen program and pointing the hackers thief-friends at our servers to download the demo version

                                BOTH these solutions remove the scriptless-kidddies who just steal any un-serialised versions in the first 1-2 days..so they are out of the picture

                                ..so yes both bit sizes requires the hacker to be at least reasonably competent, but 2048 means more work for them (always a good thing) - not in the hacking effort - but in the shipping effort.

                                HISE Development for hire.
                                www.channelrobot.com

                                d.healeyD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • d.healeyD
                                  d.healey @Lindon
                                  last edited by

                                  @Lindon said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

                                  BOTH these solutions remove the scriptless-kidddies who just steal any un-serialised versions in the first 1-2 days

                                  You guys must be doing something I'm not. I've been selling open source sample libraries without any kind of copy restriction for 5 years and I haven't seen anyone giving away copies. I'm feeling left out now that my stuff isn't turning up on these "pirate" stores.

                                  Libre Wave - Freedom respecting instruments and effects
                                  My Patreon - HISE tutorials
                                  YouTube Channel - Public HISE tutorials

                                  LindonL 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • LindonL
                                    Lindon @d.healey
                                    last edited by

                                    @d-healey said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

                                    @Lindon said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

                                    BOTH these solutions remove the scriptless-kidddies who just steal any un-serialised versions in the first 1-2 days

                                    You guys must be doing something I'm not. I've been selling open source sample libraries without any kind of copy restriction for 5 years and I haven't seen anyone giving away copies. I'm feeling left out now that my stuff isn't turning up on these "pirate" stores.

                                    I'd guess it's your audience Dave, try doing a DubStep/Grime synth and see how far you get...

                                    HISE Development for hire.
                                    www.channelrobot.com

                                    Christoph HartC 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • Christoph HartC
                                      Christoph Hart @Lindon
                                      last edited by

                                      @Lindon I think dave is right with his bigger lock on a half open door though. The attack vector is most likely not reverse engineering the private key but simply remove that check or replace the public key in the plugin with another one that matches the private key of the keygen.

                                      In order to reverse engineer the private key you have to extract it and then run brute force stuff for a certain amount of time, but as soon as you know where to find the public key in the binary application file, you can as well just modify it and save the CPU cycles required for brute forcing that private key.

                                      ustkU 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • ustkU
                                        ustk @Christoph Hart
                                        last edited by

                                        @Christoph-Hart said in Different Encryption Types in HISE?:

                                        In order to reverse engineer the private key you have to extract it and then run brute force stuff for a certain amount of time…

                                        But a 512 bit key could be cracked under one hour a few years back. I don’t know what solution a hacker is most likely to investigate…

                                        Can't help pressing F5 in the forum...

                                        d.healeyD Christoph HartC 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • d.healeyD
                                          d.healey @ustk
                                          last edited by

                                          @ustk Does the hacker know it's a 512 key without opening the code?

                                          Libre Wave - Freedom respecting instruments and effects
                                          My Patreon - HISE tutorials
                                          YouTube Channel - Public HISE tutorials

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                                          • Christoph HartC
                                            Christoph Hart @ustk
                                            last edited by

                                            @ustk I haven't done this process myself (lol), but I would imagine that in order to run the brute force reverse engineering, you need the public key (that you somehow need to find and strip from the binary app) and a message that you then run through random private keys until the decoded message is the correct thing. If you can't "isolate" the public key like this you would have to run the activation check for each private key pair, and this would be orders of magnitude slower so the protection still holds (I would say for this naive approach a 64bit RSA key would be enough).

                                            So even if that takes an hour to do with a 512 RSA key, you can just not do that but modify the app to use a public key that you fabricated and know the private key and I think this is the main route that crackers go.

                                            If that was the procedure, the cracked release will contain a modified binary (which is most often the case, because otherwise the "crack release" will contain only a 200kb keygen which I've never encountered in my life so far).

                                            CasmatC LindonL 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
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