Which modulation routing method would you recommend for my project?

[observantsound]

The last few weeks I've been fiddling with the different ways of setting up and routing modulation. They all have their pros and cons and I'd like some feedback before I make a final decision, since I might be missing something.
Thank you for your ideas and corrections!

My instrument:
NoteOn plays 3 samplers at the same time for 3 sections of an instrument (Attack, Body, Tail).
Additionally User can crossfade each section between different instrument sources for color crossfading, and User can set crossfade order, so I need a dedicated sampler for each section of each instrument source.

My goal:
Set up 2 x 3 LFOs with comboBoxes for choosing 1 modulation target out of a list for each LFO
(3 different instrument section samplers play at the same time and each section gets 2 LFOs).

Method 1: Everything internal
Most straightforward method would probably be to assign internal LFOs to all the parameters I want to control (volume, pitch, filter) and then only turn on the ones that have been set by the comboBox.
Pro: best fidelity. Maybe...?
Con: Lots of fiddly UI work that scales terribly in my project.

Method 2: Built in modulation matrix.
Seemed really promising at first but I wasn't able to set it up with comboboxes. I might (probably) be doing something wrong, but it seems like it expects you to use it with a drag and drop style while relying on the floating matrix tiles.
Pro: Best all in one system
Con: Requires me to change my UI layout and how I present what is possible and not possible to modulate. Maybe?

Method 3: Global LFOs
LFOs in global modulation container, sending to global cables
Pro: Most straightforward method that stays in script
Con: Lacking resolution

Method 4: ScriptNode LFO
TimeVariant Scriptnode in Global Modulator Container
Pro: Bit better resolution. Intentionally low block sizes could sound interesting at high speeds.
Con: Annoying to set up. Even with fix_block8 not as good resolution as native. Maybe?

[David Healey]

@observantsound said in Which modulation routing method would you recommend for my project?:

Lacking resolution

What do you mean by resolution?

[griffinboy]

@David-Healey

He means the rate at which the LFO actually updates the DSP it's connected to, I assume.

This does vary in HISE and affects the sound of High Rate modulation.
I haven't measured every path myself so I cannot give a breakdown here.

But it's definately possible to do a sweep with a good AI agent, or use the REST system to probe all the Hise processing paths and get the exact numbers for all the different scenarios.

I started to do this myself, but I haven't covered all of them and I'm using lots of custom nodes, where HISE allows you to set the rate of modulation yourself and so this isn't so unknown.

What I do know is that HISE doesn't seem to go faster than updating DSP every 8 samples.
I might be wrong on that point but that's what I've observed for C++ nodes anyhow. Maybe it's different for native DSP.

[David Healey]

@griffinboy said in Which modulation routing method would you recommend for my project?:

He means the rate at which the LFO actually updates the DSP it's connected to, I assume.

Not sure, that doesn't jive with what he wrote.

[griffinboy]

@David-Healey Really? He's talking about block and frame sizes though? DSP usually reads parameter values at the start of each block. Using larger blocks means you might not be reading the parameters / LFO modulation as frequently. (assuming the modulation / parameter callbacks are also being called fast enough by the modulator)

[David Healey]

@griffinboy said in Which modulation routing method would you recommend for my project?:

He's talking about block and frame sizes though?

I only see that in Method 4, but he's mentions "fidelity" and "Resolution" in method's 1 and 3 as well.

[observantsound]

Hey guys. I do indeed mean the speed of the LFO modulation.
I should have been more clear.

Slow methods like the global LFO to cable will sound mushy and uninteresting at speeds higher than 20Hz. Native LFOs add some nice audio rate modulation distortion at those speeds, which the other methods do not.
At least the way I've set them up

[David Healey]

@observantsound What about using global LFOs and global modulators, this is what we did back in the good ol' days before global cables. :)

[observantsound]

@griffinboy said in Which modulation routing method would you recommend for my project?:

But it's definately possible to do a sweep with a good AI agent, or use the REST system to probe all the Hise processing paths and get the exact numbers for all the different scenarios.

I have no idea what that means, sorry. Could you explain?

@griffinboy said in Which modulation routing method would you recommend for my project?:

What I do know is that HISE doesn't seem to go faster than updating DSP every 8 samples.

I used the fix_block8 node and put my oscillator inside of that container. But at 40Hz the native LFO to Filter Cutoff still sounds better than doing the scriptnode LFO to filter.

Here's the Scriptnode LFO I built
TimeVariantLFO.xml

[observantsound]

@David-Healey I thought that's what I did in method 3?
Can you route global LFOs in Global Mod containers to various targets without global cables?

[David Healey]

@observantsound said in Which modulation routing method would you recommend for my project?:

I thought that's what I did in method 3?

Nope, method 3 uses cables.

@observantsound said in Which modulation routing method would you recommend for my project?:

Can you route global LFOs in Global Mod containers to various targets without global cables?

Yes. I'll make an example for you

[David Healey]

@observantsound Here's a simple project that shows how to dynamically assign a modulation target. The combo box in this case allows you to assign the global lfo to either gain, pitch, or filter frequency. You can play with this example and expand it to connect the lfo to more than one target at a time.

As you scale this up for a full size project you'll need to plan how to keep things organised otherwise it will get messy.

HiseSnippet 1679.3oc2YEtaSbDDdu3rnXSKEJzJZER8vp+vAnA6jPBTJBSbhSsZBwDanUBgPquas8pb2tWuauzDUgT+Y+WeW5SRk5KBuAsyd2Y68RLNNlDBfijk2cmY1YlcluY1M08EVzf.gOxHWy88nHiOA2XetraktDFGUaU0DtBaeQnjw6fVYeORP.0FYXjYcEEFYmFE840ObEhCgaQGLEB8LAyhtAykIGLqW4eh43TkXSaxb0ndwx0rD7JBGQHnMYvEQdDqcHcnOlnHaJL5GIAcQF2.em4uqkU6kKM+xyOucqkZ0Z9RKr3xEoKVjTr0hVsVb412a4kuSKjw4VylIE9MjDIM.D5JB68azU7a73M3Yr.VKGpZPITCXmimFUoKywtdOWS.BDT8ANpLwNpqf2jYy5O+.G1EiVvb.G5NMioFkJU5XnRFZpzzwpzkvMr7YdxAqnzmyiqwkT+1D3rQWUhoEM0KxfqH.J3x4bI6Pq5CC5yQgkJV7VlvWyd+b4fym.oYGGQKhylBaEWfQS8qYa9.y7qGMuIrPnCALQy9qm+9Ir5zVDS6FU2Z.g46KZHRqlc.PPTL3bcnxZ1avBjE5IbUHi4yH9LBWpIfY6sARhOvjRBO+EfTaCZQg8LY7DIOatrITLmWXP2B82l9hpvdyprzae6qaZ41BltYD8IhWeJXO541fQUDtdBNLnPdchhzLswyEnHkK8ENUHNNsfH7BBtNEIqpTBF2A7dlsC4VRlfaNTBKX0amuk4tDmP5r498bYYsMKb8jgYy5Skg9bPhYibHLP0KdeSl4OzyeMmCk2Q1El6l2DX.DPjD.BePrPM+NyRJI0y88b1KlCbIbpkroX8dADItvgEfbq3ydvrxlk5DPe6jUdkeM6qxkM4uWkSyI8XgjtEuPje.Vw7fK0t8PWKwe5P8G5xpHO+QwXAdnaKpu9ofhPH4LcF+4FuLdq3XKMBE7ZblbKOZx3pBGaUlr52GFe.kDbpPJRzPfTYDNwESvIff1VhUD6gXfXt.VO5BEYE5v6nmVaUhjzSdfngsyi5KYJqxXU5t.VeLNTV7pzfcjBuHZSBOAKe7288PFXiqA669perJ7CWRzbYfexjTWXKuLVUAJWclzpatpLG.wBgNLnH.G2KZRGiVwaxBvwXJfQE3GOfI2W27OF.2EGIv83phWBGYYCWGmZH5HbxbZniIk69T7ZsaConCTvowU+kIs113u8yDu8eM9.HC8wChzkqgeyUeFQSK+yIeSKGLcexKvO8YPOGmLgtW9PmFAuCSvR0YzkhUSLF53HR29LbpdONZ8ZElmvg3qVupO8WCobKs0morJnn1fXpx+U4elrKEJz5l.F1WRaP6.ao9LMo.3HzDhkd7WCWgP1E51Ncn1UJugP3sFm.NAacgTuKIPUUCZsHkX.w1TrII.vEq3Hr1QewZc3BeZbkR84qDFHEt8LfnttaHodQ.+FOGuzhyAeZeS022qB70BacxLFcx0W7TicPpJPn+QtJj33GjN83EjdDkpOVZb+fvO.z3QVCKyG20v1N9JyaRj9LUqKONzsATkvhB6NzrqSfpcloT4bwiKpFGk3R41QC9O3SxhkTiMRVrTuEQwBOtsLc68Bw164wMfBfQWxIxZ+hnwlpzay0oPowCg.dpWdbKKIr6M8I7.OQPJA2f5xZBsJFnO4SCnp.9sUQOo.pDD+gtzqeXUvFGJOMHv0fhBCejqHjmBszHyXmlni+jtKRM5+npd9YX2xofyy1SGavb8bnqw2k5.WAIApYUZaRnir+r5J4lBtvqqfyRUocaJj9zoC0WW0Gp87HojnWA8Jk2l5PI5Avea4Mf.OhO3lnSnq33+hOC835p3X0M90RdaN1NwKVjzMeu10UJXxq4LniLkI7M3Q9fOGsk.3FMIQpphfcgqoFSbzjwsy.81TI9YGT9FiaLhqP78o6Y7D6H8Cg5noB6xNlmeli97a9Qp+l4y+2ZscO0w+rDFdpbFcFzGwvb+eNttvY+X7rjG9PoDyfSF7lqniPG9NL+4+V9I5oNoAvtZ4mDRbREb8GkSNbFdfWlSiK.OpriuDmpm3yfhTFS.D2QjhrvoAF2oUdwnwtTgfluW+VaeENIhN51UueqqW.+jyHE7cwMZ9XYObIV9hWZE+v6JHhYhlA7s7n+clYwapFaV5fOzNB4Bc9+RKqzh5PLN+jx3BSJiKNoLdmIkwklTFWdRY7tGMipKl8nPovMN+Cg1r9ZwfsF8ebNiLn+G.TwalO

I also have a video about using Global Modulators which might have some useful info in it: https://youtu.be/Y2XhAEE1IBI

[observantsound]

@David-Healey thanks David! I’ll check it out before the end of the week and get back to you.