Problems with Global LFOs and polarity.....

[Lindon]

Ok heres a simple project snippet:

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So the Global LFO doesnt behave how I think it should.....it doesnt matter what I set the Pitch Modulation "receiver" to (mono or bi-polar) this problem happens any way:

Set the Global LFO Modulator to mono polarity - and its intensity to 1.00 and it behaves in a way I'd expect - it modulates the pitch upwards from the played note and back again...but set its Intensity to 0 and ...I'd expect it to have no effect on the pitch - but it sets the pitch to some fixed maximum.....and the nearer we get to 0 the nearer it gets to this "offset pitch" -- thats got to be wrong

Set the Global LFO Modulator to bi-polar and it behaves as you might expect - when its at full intensity.... but drop its intensity, and... nothing changes! - That's got to be wrong doesn't it?

So what I want is a Global LFO that I can assign in different places in my instrument - I want it to be bi-polar. I want the assignment spots to have their own ability to add intensity(depth), AND to have an overall intensity(depth) that I can set for the Global LFO....is it broken or is it me?

[Lindon]

@Lindon hmm, it seems a constant in the Global LFO's Intensity Modulation slot will work...in reverse

[Lindon]

@Lindon which is near useless as it turns out as it inverts the lfo - so my custom LFO shapes are all wrong... how do OI get this to behave properly?

[d.healey]

@Lindon Oh me and Christoph had a long long long discussion about this - you will find it on the forum somewhere. The old solution used to be to have a constant pitch mod with the opposite pitch shift, but that's hacky and, I think, no longer needed.

You must leave the global modulator as bipolar.
You can set the target mod to unipolar and adjust the global modulator's phase and the target's table to try to get the behaviour you want.

[d.healey]

Actually, it looks like they most both be set to bipolar, otherwise you'll still get the pitch shift when the intensity is at 0.

So the only way to make it pseudo unipolar would be to use the table.

[Lindon]

@d-healey nope, cant for the life of me get the Global LFO depth to change, can you show me an example?

[Lindon]

@Lindon sigh now I cant even get the Global LFO to behave like a bipolar - it doesnt matter uni or bi-polar its just modulating in one direction only...

[Lindon]

@Lindon yes this is broken...

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So I have set up a GlobalLFO and Local LFO in exactly the same way, but swap between them and:

• the local bi-polar behaves itself....

• but swap these around and all sorts of silliness
  starts to happen:

• the Local target starts adding in a constant value even if its Global source is turned off!! Turn off the Global LFO and then turn the local target on and off to get an octave jump in the sound!

• set the local to "no connection" and it still does it...

[d.healey]

@Lindon Here's the thread I mentioned - https://forum.hise.audio/topic/469/global-pitch-modulator-problem?_=1722602630363

[Lindon]

@d-healey yes I see, but its all broken for me here now......I JUST wanted a simple intensity response form the Global LFO in bi-polar mode ...

@Christoph-Hart here is my use case:

I have 6 Global LFOs, they each have a nice UI that lets me set all their values..

I can assign each LFO to a number of different targets, voice pitch, voice gain, send amounts, filter freq. etc. And each of these "targets" has their own depth/intensity....

I want a global intensity(on each LFO) as well.... uni polar not a problem, bi-polar = not working, well doing all sorts of odd things actually...

in fact the entire Global Time Variant Modulator target system seems broken to me in that I can have it set to "No connection" in a pitch target and its adding its own intensity to the pitch...which has to be wrong doesnt it?

Global Time Variant Modulators seem to work correctly (i.e. dont add their values when no connection) when applied to gain....

[DanH]

@Lindon had similar headaches with Halo....

[Lindon]

@DanH thanks yes, its a problem child alright...

Adding in the Constant to the LFO Intensity gets you exactly where I want to go - except the LFO values are all inverted - so I need to flip them (effectively multiply by -1) but I cant see how to do that...

..perhaps a Script \time variant Modulator - but I dont know how to use those... any one point me at any documentation?

this is hardly helpful:
https://docs.hise.dev/hise-modules/modulators/time-variant-modulators/list/scripttimevariantmodulator.html

[Lindon]

@Lindon ok so I have a hacky work around....if anyone ever gets here with this problem...

Set up your Global LFOs as bi-polar...

add a constant modulator to each LFOs "LFO Intensity Mod" section - and invert the values produced by your UI's depth control to modulate this instead of the LFOS intensity...

At this point the LFO will work correctly... but will send modulation values in inverted order, so you need to invert every "target modulator"... now your modulation should work properly, but if you are using a plotter to display the Global LFOs state, this will also be inverted...so:

set up a "dummy" sound source(a silent synth wont work) that issues no sound and add to it a "target modulator", suitably inverted, for each of your Global LFOS, (you can do this in the GAIN section if you like - it really doesnt matter where - but Im gun-shy of the Pitch section right now) now use the output of these in your Plotters...