Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps

Dan Korneff

I've just started going thru all of the JUCE tutorials. Very interesting stuff. Also thumbing thru the HISE code to learn how you're handling these situations. It's all over my head at the moment, but I'm interested to see the solution.

@Christoph-Hart said in Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps:

there are performance implications that have to be evaluated against the edge case of people not using their piano roll correctly

man... I think all of my beta testers are the "edge case". :face_with_tears_of_joy: They draw in midi for basic drum beats, then drop a midi note right on top of another note to create their flams. Every. Single. One.

@Christoph-Hart said in Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps:

as soon as MIDI notes with the same channel and note number overlap, things get into undefined territory.

I can definitely understand this issue. Once there is an overlap, how does the buffer determine which noteOn/noteOff belongs to which event ID.

Christoph Hart

how does the buffer determine which noteOn/noteOff belongs to which event ID.

Well, FIFO means First in First out, so the earlier note would automatically get the note off. The other model would be a LIFO (Last in, first out" stack), but I think the result would be super weird.

They draw in midi for basic drum beats, then drop a midi note right on top of another note to create their flams. Every. Single. One.

It will probably come down to a preprocessor definition that customizes this behaviour on a per project basis. This problem is more apparent on drum based projects, because you don't need your super VA style Saw synth to flam :)

rzrsharpeprod

@Christoph-Hart said in Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps:

how does the buffer determine which noteOn/noteOff belongs to which event ID.

Well, FIFO means First in First out, so the earlier note would automatically get the note off. The other model would be a LIFO (Last in, first out" stack), but I think the result would be super weird.

They draw in midi for basic drum beats, then drop a midi note right on top of another note to create their flams. Every. Single. One.

It will probably come down to a preprocessor definition that customizes this behaviour on a per project basis. This problem is more apparent on drum based projects, because you don't need your super VA style Saw synth to flam :)

I have just encountered this issue and have gone through this thread to try and find the solution but it seems it may still be unsolved?

I hadn't noticed it before as have just been playing notes in with my keyboard to test my plugin.
I dragged some MIDI files into the plugin inside FL studio last night and noticed the overlapping notes not playing.
The odd thing is that the overlapping notes play the first time around (usually) but once they have gone through their initial 8 bar loop and play the exact same notes again, the overlapping ones don't produce sound. That struck me as really odd as if you just play the 8 bars through once you would think it was working ok.

100% of the time if I shorten the notes so that they don't overlap anymore the issue goes away so it looks to be the overlapping that is causing the problem.

ustk

@Christoph-Hart Might this be related to the double notes in the midi player issue happening only once per loop?
https://forum.hise.audio/topic/7311/midi-player-transport-bugs-info-requests/21

rzrsharpeprod

I have now tested this with several different plugins - some with effects and some just a sampler and it happens every time so I don't really know how to get around the issue.

@Christoph-Hart asked earlier if this is a problem with other plugins and I can confirm that I have tried the same MIDI file in addictive keys, several kontakt pianos and some other keys plugins and they all handle the MIDI fine playing all of the notes within the MIDI.
I even tried one of my earlier Maize plugins and that plays fine as well. I tried that because I think I remember somebody saying that Maize uses the Juce framework as well but I could be wrong there?

The issue is quite odd as isn't even consistently dropping the same notes each loop, but in summary:

If I shorten the overlapping notes that 100% gets rid of the issue but obviously I can't ask a user not to have overlapping MIDI notes.

If I don't shorten the overlapping notes, they cut out most of the time but the dropped notes sometimes play if I loop the 8 bar MIDI over & over.

I have tried all of the retrigger modes and none of them solved the issue.

If I set the playback to one shot it seems to get rid of the issue after some brief testing last night (I need to do more) but this changes the sound and gets 'muddy' quickly when multiple notes are played. I presume one shot mode plays the sample in it's entirety and doesn't factor in the MIDI note length as much/at all?
If I play with the ADSR envelope I can get it sounding better but I am not sure this is the solution?

As @Dan-Korneff mentioned in the original mention of this issue, it is literally the last thing stopping release of 2 projects now with a 3rd close to completion.
Until this is resolved they can't be released as it isn't handling the MIDI correctly.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to give as much detail about the issue & what I have tried so far

Thanks in advance

rzrsharpeprod

Sorry for replying to my own post, but after doing some further testing at the weekend I am still lost and it is making even less sense.

In FL studio, if I use any plugin that I have built in HISE the notes are being dropped unless I stop them from overlapping.
Just to clarify, I don't mean the same note overlapping, but other notes in the chord running into the next bar then stops a note at the start of that next bar from playing.

If I use another plugin such as FL Keys, Addictive keys etc then the exact same MIDI plays fine without dropping notes. This is the same with plugins that I have built in Maize, they don't drop the notes either.
This means that FL is capable of playing the notes, it just isn't for the HISE plugins for some reason.

In Ableton Live, using my HISE built plugin and the same MIDI file, all of the notes play fine which is just bizarre.
If the none HISE plugins also dropped the same notes in FL then I would think it was an FL issue/setting, but as the none HISE ones play fine in FL and it's only the HISE ones have that issue than I am thinking it must be a setting somewhere in the HISE build(s) but I have no idea what.

@Christoph-Hart do you have any idea what may be causing this issue and how I might be able to get around it please?

Thanks in advance

d.healey

@rzrsharpeprod Make a new HISE project, add a sinewave generator, export the plugin. Does this exhibit the same issue?

rzrsharpeprod

@d-healey said in Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps:

@rzrsharpeprod Make a new HISE project, add a sinewave generator, export the plugin. Does this exhibit the same issue?

I just tried this and it does drop the same notes even with just the sine wave generator.

Interestingly I have also been playing with other plugins that I know are built on HISE such as Blaque guitar by NewNation. If I put the same MIDI in there in FL it plays all of the notes!! This means it is possible for HISE to play all of the notes in that MIDI so not sure why my plugins or the simple sine won't?

One last thing that I have also just noticed. The plugin plays the first 4 bars fine, the first dropped note is at the start of the 6th bar. If I start the plugin playing at the 5th bar instead of the beginning, it plays everything and doesn't drop any notes.
Could there be a build up of notes/voices so that a max limit is being reached and won't play or something like that? It is odd that it plays fine if you start there that's for sure.

rzrsharpeprod

Hopefully this shows it better than I can explain it.

1st instrument is one of mine. It drops the G# at start f 6th bar if I play from start
If I play from start of 5th bar it plays the G# at the start of the 6th

2nd instrument is just the sinewave generator

3rd instrument is Blaque guitar which is built in HISE and this plays all of the notes

d.healey

Are you using the latest develop branch?

gorangrooves

@rzrsharpeprod Did you check the maximum number of voices/polyphony in the sampler (Voice settings)?

d.healey

@gorangrooves said in Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps:

@rzrsharpeprod Did you check the maximum number of voices/polyphony in the sampler (Voice settings)?

He said it happens with the minimal sinewave project too

rzrsharpeprod

This post is deleted!

rzrsharpeprod

@d-healey I haven't rebuilt HISE in a couple of months so possibly not.

d.healey

@rzrsharpeprod Start there

rzrsharpeprod

@gorangrooves said in Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps:

@rzrsharpeprod Did you check the maximum number of voices/polyphony in the sampler (Voice settings)?

I did and it is set to 256 which should be more than enough right?

But as @d-healey said it also does it in the sinewave generator clean build.

Could it be to do with note/sample length? I'm running out of ideas and I am struggling to see what is different between my HISE project and a HISE project that works like Blaque/Apache for example.
The reason I ask about sample length is because I literally took the Apache source code and files from the GitHub, added in my samples and left everything else the same. The Apache flute plays the notes but the version with my samples still drops the note.

d.healey

@rzrsharpeprod

I am struggling to see what is different between my HISE project and a HISE project that works like Blaque/Apache for example.

Might be time to make a minimal project that demonstrates the issue and post it here.

rzrsharpeprod

@d-healey said in Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps:

@rzrsharpeprod

I am struggling to see what is different between my HISE project and a HISE project that works like Blaque/Apache for example.

Might be time to make a minimal project that demonstrates the issue and post it here.

Sounds good, thankyou.
Should I include the piano samples seeing as they might be the issue?

I'm just building a version with artificially short samples as a test to see if it still does it as I'd like to rule that out.

d.healey

@rzrsharpeprod Well I don't think the samples are necessary if it happens with the sine wave gen. Are you using a particular MIDI file to test it, maybe you could just post that?

rzrsharpeprod

@d-healey said in Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps:

@rzrsharpeprod Well I don't think the samples are necessary if it happens with the sine wave gen. Are you using a particular MIDI file to test it, maybe you could just post that?

[Patent Sounds - Essential Keys] - Baithoven (C#min) (160BPM).mid

Here is the MIDI file that is giving me the issues. Is that all you need if you can use the sinewave gen or would you like me to make a snippet still?

It is worth noting - just to make this even more complicated - that in FL if I set the BPM to something other than the correct BPM of 160, then it changes which note(s) cut out.
I just thought I should mention it as I have been testing it at 160BPM and that way the same G# cuts out each time

Sample not triggered if MIDI overlaps

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