How to make Mid-Side processing?

ustk

L-(-R) = L+R => MID

L-R => SIDE

Mid is often misunderstood, it is not only the middle of the field but the sum of everything
This is because many people tend to use a cardioid mic for the centre, but it is more common to have an omni... (that been said, there is no better way than the one you like)
While SIDE is just the L minus R
You might already know this, but in case anyone needs to know...

orange

@ustk said in How to make Mid-Side processing?:

L-(-R) = L+R => MID

L-R => SIDE

Mid is often misunderstood, it is not only the middle of the field but the sum of everything
This is because many people tend to use a cardioid mic for the centre, but it is more common to have an omni... (that been said, there is no better way than the one you like)
While SIDE is just the L minus R
You might already know this, but in case anyone needs to know...

Yeah, but I'm a little bit confused. can you share a snippet about that if it is possible?

ustk

I am trying to work out a solution in HISE but I always lose a signal somewhere in the routing matrix, and/or I can't do what I want with the scriptFX...
What I want to do is clear in my mind, but in HISE I am lost...

@Christoph-Hart or anyone else on that?

Also, in a routing matrix, can we only have 2 direct connections + 2 sends? I can't connect 4 or 6 sends...
or to sends from 1 input?
Can we stack up several routing matrices? it doesn't seem to work here...

Win Conway

@orange then you are doing it wrong or HISE is doing it wrong, that is exactly how you create M/S signal from stereo.
Mono is mid, it has no side, mid phase cancelled from the full signal leaves only sides.

Win Conway

Just double checked this in Reaper and it created Mid Side perfectly, so must be some issue with the way HISE is summing them or something ?

orange

@Win-Conway Can you try that method in Hise?

Win Conway

@orange not right now, im away from home mobile, after the weekend i can try, but i dont know HISE that well right now, but i will give it the good old try ;)

orange

@Win-Conway I can help about Hise, no problem. But the main problem is in the operation :) I think with a collabration, it can be done ;)

ustk

Ok I think I've finally found something
Tested and compared in Pro Tools with an M/S plugin, I have exactly the same result
Still needs to decode back to Stereo now...
Also, it is easier to test it with a real song in the sampler rather than a wave generator

HiseSnippet 1699.3oc6YstaaaCEVJNpK1qYnqnCX+X+PqXqHoWhujK1AEs0wwIoFMtwyNMn.CAArxzNDQVTPhJoYEEau.68X+bOB6QpuAaGRQaQ4n5ZsktVzM8i.etQd34P9wygokG0B66S8zzyt+4tXM8qZz4bG1wadLh3n0ntl90MZ1n9QcZTeKyyndmPb5qU6bWjuOtqltdlc35omcVMw2adTMjMxwBGwRS6.JwBuKY.gEwsU0mPrs2F0EuOYfh1qTsgE0YSpMM.7oLFEzbQVmf5ieJhq1LFZ5WYqtDF0qCCwv9Z5yVi187NGSOyIT+CH9jWXi4DE05.CTH6so1c4dL+2ZadLwtaqgqceMMciVQQhLgQhaXzjzkLheTD4ZBAlQVnFOzmYRtWQU2qPhtWwDbOMEua1PuCbBZ2.aDKtmwSGRADpSLOqgCC63SXmqlt9f5teoQKBy53j82YRvegD06a+Ul7m2Xqd8vVrHmcVise9e2LcJ1Hl4h9RVi1z.FFl9vfFmBNFZ1Dw7HurXbmJSbmJyz4TIDSjyR3jno+UOMXPG3PoEFBINNXaXvMzyowMUPWfSySQcvNcEDyDIrHmVWJTPjIRXIN8eBebgiHjBWVU3xiIbEUgqLlvUUEt5XBWSU3ZiIrrpvxiIrhpvJiIbcUgiHzRaNszGs4zYmTN03+n4TIFWNiNVdDWlLodUIo41OO9YzP1Zy7qYLf657Ylmh7L8YXOLsFyw7AlaR4Perk5iYaRG3Rc.hEt4HMt4h2e9bQVBWFMIyBEOlMcHcwSxHobgUymqWfiEGd1z0C6h7v6SaYiNeAez.WabaXS4cMegM05jNjeBuXtWkKatWqZiHNUiqvBVx8YfV4u874LgORuEBcQtKb.xN.uvhK9JgH92PK9wBGZdayh2e9KJonpjWe67g+XRi97ukguvac3UkbQUJcn4chnV9PyG9vHx0N79ft4yat6cZCA7llDGyxILOqIlmkJWnbLyKKLO9GLXgCiIxoqYE4Je9bYGsnkIvKwUcB5rJWm6kXNYkXQjUiGQpLJhbOdDoCeoTIgAoRxQj0SNhHFl0EQjhEjgD0Mh7xJcXdT6EbBF7Br2cgSBPjY3FV3fcbX14lNXVpSCGBaOWrr9yXmQTYGcLXH2hZi7oHEsBOPpLwuW.xU.3tHPthvRCuI+sBjmQJLQf7YkBSDH2PJLQf7qHElHP9mIElHP9bRgIBjmUJLBHWh.xq8RlLfewDH5egDBuV.iAUmR.36O2XDNrlX+iZ0zZSw.LmQHfz3VySVuaqyZHOYmf4OqQcDCAqCc4RB1x3h8XD9tY853Sg1vFV8Qcr+ILpqXMKQ8g.xTspe4nI8WpVUo37aU0C0kP2wiF3Nbi6zL1iBHQCrYuKiANJVEMxWi8NFYkq0+lvf00M5v7vnAv4sNha77DWuC21GRU7xneX2ote3VdXaJpK+t1H09ip0Bf9U7hy82qJlpMFPCbhMWROuM1EiXP6WJ1LW01sEwiws5MORzr19dP+37GAPYAsmCFfqho6ldTe+dvxQLV9pZ2JvqOOVEwoM9Trmebd.hlJVFGd5Y9XN1LwZHrWj1hYov9HA972aTZkkh+c5dve5cG9OWeSAcnIESuIkRuIKmdSVI8lrZ5MYszaR4TYx32olc5tSsIxsEBR8JZViHO8AxB4D+oNTTczdOgqp7zPcvL9sl9J5N4GFP+J++yB8tZ4rvDa4TWu0EdhwqA3x7L4VNmBPY.mvmYrNtGJvlMjabX0lTGp6wTGhUbfC.Hneermpum3BZCFCvsh3bipsw1XjuBx22UcWhCF4EGOLUwhhSerXR4qu1HzcM42EX9owy4k4Snmy6xOz8ExhILgY2i8Qdd9pFhaBL4Uq7gxUGqAHiDa.Zl+QM.oMrgS9IW4uEEXqmA6vuYQ7J01PsK1pao8gBw3tzLP2MguPx.3FKP0PBnvw1TdsRF52BzdW5SvmOj3wDIQEgjC3CbnW+Xhj3m4q81xBVCc5sI1x+6H+fQdnFIO+788v8yWmZEL.JQ1O+QsZu2Ns2nYyFOcm7PHDQdLwGWJ+FAPwuby8y2Iv9DzQ7dDrOpIhWr+RmgNUqdfqMwBRbh2sRr.B2gBy8Ye6MzBYskSWNiA+1C9WuyzODOwn1j5LUeRclpMoNS0uPmoCPVdzirB6JjuMbNAGXCniHem0nIm1r3vlA4GbF.EgbjkEGg6dvQmjsnTpsX4TawJo1hUSsEqkZKJmZKpLAK3U7sQ.iNH79NfQqsBwHz2ZDFQFs+B5n7EwB

orange

@ustk Sounds great! thank you for sharing.
Why did you multiply the signal with 0.707?
Will you make stereo decoder too?

ustk

a 0.707 factor is equal to -3db, which is necessary to compensate here since the signal is doubled on two output (+3dB).

Just made the decoder

HiseSnippet 1734.3oc6ZEsaaaCEUJNpM1sYXqn.aCXOnMrMzszTa4jXmfh15jX2TiF23Yk1MfgfLVY5DhHSJHQkrrgg8Irei8zv9DJ1Ow9B1S6k87dYijRxhRQMyJoooqM5g.euGdIuh7du7Ppz0kXA87HtJpE27PGnh5U0LODS2c0cAHrR6lJpWSqS6laa1tYK8CHt6gv6nrxgN.OOXeEU0BqwamZwIUDO+08VAXCvVvXUJJOgfrfqiFhnwZ613gHa66C5C2DMTp0y2nsEAuJwl3y7oBZUTb.V6A1A9H.uYSnondoV8QThqIEPgdJpStBo+gl6RN.Gz9mf7PO0FxELTLYcTf56Sr6y8X9uUVcWjc+tQu6dJJpZcimIJDLSbcsNn9nQ5imQdaAfdrExyGpSbbtmgr6UIS2yHC2SQx6lLv6XNAouuMflzy3KGg.HBNgm0FSgXOD8P4kqyU28cz5hnV6ls+NQF9Kag5r1eCW7mVq0fAPKZryNo18+pS5JcNBDuzQ8khZ8H9THa3Clz3RrzP8N.pK5aMR5TENkNUlyOgiXv.pn99OxenIKA0BxldvXnMafzTupB2TgbEtLe4xDh6KDlHFzfKqFBJDJDCVkK+OrGN3HgPv4jAmKE37xfymBbAYvERAVSFrVJv5xf0SAtnL3ho.WRFboTfFUjQikhfMR.ORRIuQGU+eQzwjGWzg1EQGmfniv5tkzLsbQNzvviqn0wTuE1hzGlHvHnQJS72pZC7wV7Zw5NtPGfKbSRWavg2vCLzwF1iE2bS8mZSr1yD8cvOqz2WpXoenjjMBGXEdCtgU3xOqUSWRm8Do3qqrk9mqW41ozZHqk+jDt5V5yDKM2V528twh0151r1Vtr95yzS+N5czQX85o5+Zh9+V0qTOgo0ElF7v5.go0zA39QcPptYAd2LqQrQG8g0My1KkYymv8WHo6u3H2eVt6ax8gES0AKls6uTR2OvTg6uzzkjWa3zpvTWh8Mv9CeJz8l56Cr8GsFxBhRVbXpwq3.A2Fina3.C4ekHrQVcbjQjVCkQ9TbCYz+X66SkXzclTxQNc5Hkbj.qFs60ysjSgPvLK4LYHXlkbzBAyrjykBAyrjykCAyrjyTgfYVxoXH3KpRNqFrbw50G2tIfBXTXTC0wVwbftTDOXRsIbe1o.h1xpIzaOJwIAyqKG.dEMS.02kyTTTxZJsN5MQdzDbCCaBmxX.4vu4m9s+3deIjt7PhOlJyvsqKL4YTXCJwiJq6WV6id1odqwLYyoNlLgeWs32H8ye96mnzqnfiLSuFE4jU504wN5m7zqyqczet4GliQ9QiR+9edRyOZL2bybQ9waX4GmbFuuT29Y7X71D9bY7V6Lhwaohx7NmIAMNY5aFU37237Nmwjw7acN8MCioKUbZodXowixoorM0SLpKkZTMhF0Y4iZOwnV8zvV7xmOrEufa3KMtgkhlExN47JQvmEbC+f.vqoYRcgfgrkWSQ1YvVfrT9.IiWDWMsyXe0zrsNsIf975BwM6YMVwev.naRs+ZCwPkd6WmFgddOnCDP6vqRMBbpF85slKw2IiMs42a5lt.Kw8wK8BsAFxRBSz1UcIddCXuNh9xKwF89t6vmqh0zCtOz0KoNVBjbpCOa3wdPdhOxJJKKt0hQoxl.Qx+mnUc9ak7Y+MX+YvL7etzpB4.SLxuIUyuIykeSlO+lrP9MoV9ModtLIcA6hiWA6N.mt.1RuTKWAEl8wvBzj7qNH0zQwdBWU5L8lPJuHsmTaOdNWYcw3uQ9EZJLdt6+AY6hQ9nIhuR1BuOqTFSSvW7qIb.v2lFoMYY0NDLwYWBFYkrvAqPvN6.ck88LegVlRY0sh0b8F8f1PfmTkuOtw5HLD3lrdXtlKLF+4hia858zBbWc9dA5ud7k0J7ZzWV6E+T2aERlPmM5tzWwWmuplXm.cNakWQNLrVl7sm3Tw2VI5fK7L2veKHTpV.h46rHtzCaF2Ea4PZOFQLtKMAiLcvo4Fx1wh0z.AFwwdDNWIM0Ok050IODdXjvCPgBKJPdBuiC75GfBE9Q96d.AsHm99H6v+QE9BsxLNRtdk2wEtS4lDK+gLVudk2tauMVq2xc5z9QqUlMEBPO.4AqVdY+9HB2buxl916A1lyI1d6N.OJz8VG.1WoouiMxhsvIN8p3EHHBkM1G7gWWIPUKbethg+7ct3VJNq9tbJG+AgTO5AgFBrbIaaEb3UdP7TBMrvWrHZonVGtrtgh3P1AocCYTX11xhWebVVhW1VTM2VLWtsX9bawB41hZ41h541hEOFK37EW1mRFFraISQ2VAUXTaMpBSAk+UOvjtV

ustk

Now I am reading the code, it seems to be easy... But I worked two days on that

orange

@ustk Sounds very good on laptop, I will check it on the studio. You did it! Congrats man ;)

Jay

@orange ok, now how are we supposed to use this? Well no use it, but implement it, how to add the buttons for selection

orange

@Jay You can use it bypassing/enabling script fx and simple gain units to send or stop feeding signals. M/S processing has been widely used in most of the recent fx plugins. For users, workflow is the key ;)

orange

@ustk said in How to make Mid-Side processing?:

Now I am reading the code, it seems to be easy... But I worked two days on that

I am trying it, sides are working well while we process sides differently.

But when mids are processed, sides are affected same too. (I use parametric eq) I think they could be processed differently, does it make sense?

ustk

@orange They're working separately here... When adding a level control on each, I can control Mid without touching the Sides, and vice versa...
Or I don't understand what you mean? Is the routing of your EQs modified in consequence?

HiseSnippet 1855.3oc6Z80TaaDDWBaEvNgNoYXl1NSePcl9mjR.aY.aXxjDCXCgI3fiEIocZYnWjOC2frNMRmfR6zo8iSerO1Gymh125zOB8aP6cmjrNITbsgPHjX8.i2cu8t8ta289sGWSGrAz0E6HIma6isgRxWSQ+XKx9qtO.YIsQMI4anzXiZ6puQs5pGgcN.YsmzJGaCbcgskjkyrNqcx4xJw+9m6uBvDXY.iXII8TLx.tIpKhDwsY0GhLMWCzFtMpqPqmu5FFXqUwlXOpMkQonjMv3.vdvGAXMaLEI4qTuMhfczI.BzURN6J31GquO9HK+1+TjK54lPFgljNsi7YuF1rMyhY+VZ08QlsaFN2ckjjUZFsRjwekXJkFn1nd7iVQtNWfZjFhqGxi0OySSz7Jlp4okh4IIXcY8sNpQfa6YBHwsL11Qf.D1JlksgEAZ4hHGKtccgZtuuRSDwX+zs2wRwdoaTm21avl+jJ06zAZPhL1rJq8Um1c5gvQbhSZK4TZg8HP5v6unwnnggpM.DGz2qE2nxbFMpTWeBFQ+ATR9idjWWcZ.pAjt7XYAMoCjh70jXpxoKxnYaW5Pq1bhwhDpwnkCDxIxDIrDi9eoeLg8HBDNmnv4RHbdQgymP3BhBWHgvxhBKmPXEQgURHbQQgKlP3RhBWJgPshhRinBEqESbOJog06nzkBuir8y6PYj2wov6HHuadEcCGjMIv83pJMzUqaYfaCi4X32HowxNlRGOKCVtXUaGnMvAtMtoI33a5B5ZaBaQ8ats5yMwFGni9A3sx+i4yk+mxKnC2.Vg0faZDr8Sa0j4UoegL9lh6n9kpEuSBtZhbYewEWZG0oinlaG06cuHxx6bGZaKTPcyoaodW0FpHK0JI5+x79e1JEqDS0JbU8+nc.W0xp.q1pUTmYt1q32KI5qEX80LZQZdxOZeMSqDpMer4vBwmCK1aNLCaNnyLjESzAKl9bXo3yAeU4ygkBlCh6RL.VVDGr4Ms759bnysUODX50a2j5NEOMwDCVZBr0FVHxV1v.jXwbfDYG4iDxUSpmME0PJPPJB.h.1tykjOhAVmH4ifvRgmi8RS9jIPXpIexFHL0jOJABSM4yUBDlZxmwCDlZxmIBDlZxmbABeUk7YU+sKZu9jMpAH.JXF4.dzcLanCAwbljqAOjVOP3gW0ftGPv1wvfMtuvqpnCHdNLLi7jWSnzPsFxkDCkXPSXfG8gI92O92+q6+LHY4tXOKhHV2lNPgpUTu029EUahcIB7pl+Om4Em4CISEWm7.hI9CThlQpW7H4OUgWgNGoFd0yyIsvqKhy1O8gWWTmsOduR0QrCkWOz2IGM.YS3gPy9VgdMHMcrXMUOC0lreDiutZJ0vmLnHyfETjRfP1At3PlgqdooX1anvWXuLYv7M9KOF70UZBFkSbTNw9kS7jXFzG.LCeWmN+wffY3WlZ1alDyvKVGb6QXFdGK93zee.uVgjOPXFzGgYXDlgQXFFkS7ctbh84NRqAeo2QZY4ym6HMeNwapb5X24m3c8oUjcYerapbZc06ptI6t9zzlLetIE5gkFr6mTWTmJwF0kRLpZgi5LrQsEeTKcVtUwwuXtUwQ2g3qs6PLe3pP5AmWMT74wcH9w9BughNwAB5R2d04Qm9kEPC48ozdU7XFrG3Gy.sbBSLnMKuPTydQ0U75zA5Dm6uUkOTIKIwtZfk2BZCAjFrrT8DNQ0VsV2A6YmRgLr+S6a6.L3ufCgIzVVPZPXr1tpC10sCc5v6KWwV2zyYO1ZUDmVTviNtw4QCfDCcXQCOwExB7QFgQYQslOJE2FvC9+LkRyOa7uC2h9mNSy94Rqxo8UQa3UozvqxbCuJyO7prvvqR4gWkJCkJISXmavRX2.XSwbAMEZ4JnfnOpLeNwemJBMsmuG2TE9e+nCIrjztBss+Xtjuxn2zy+WcWE6ecWhW.QtPazu.x5VzZFoYj6UGSGfmIIja7zpMvVX68wVHi3INnIB1aOninsm5DZYBgl2JhyTUaAMg.WgLeeZ0MQVPfS77gC0Zg1fuVzu8qOTw2bUYmEn91wawJyaQuEqW8KcuW.XBU5n6PdCee9ZJ7SBTYnUdCoXXkTwaO1YBusTXgKrH2feyATJmAZwNYgeQvl7K9Rvk1kBDiYRiQAS6WMWW5IVzl5SPAN1ByvJoH+4zVuI9gviCId.JfXQtjmx5Xeq9An.helM28AnEZzqgLCdZqOVo.Eijiag8bf6UnF1vqKE0qagca1Zq0asbiFa7n0KPWBAnGfbgkJrrWaDlotaAcOyC.6xvDataCfKA5L6QfCkp4YahLnab7pW4S.eOT5XezmLkjOq5VsYL59q2czsTbd8Rtj5egPxmrPnt.CG7tF9EuxeWnbNT2WKt2RNkFLZUMIdQ19gccoPX10vfkebFZfW5ZTZn0XtgVi4GZMVXn0n7PqQkgViE6iFL7hK6Qvc8OsjxnYc+LLx06kgIiz+AaLHA.C

@Jay orange gave a solution two days ago in previous thread

orange

@ustk
I added a saw synth with stereo delay fx. So, delayed sound is side, saw sound is mid. If you look at the MID EQ unit, when you tweak eq, mids and sides are changing both. (actually only mids should be affected)
If you send this eq to sides, only stereo delayed sounds are affected, that we want that. But it is not working for mids. Am I doing wrong?

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ustk

it's a normal behaviour of the M/S processing, this is why a complex source is important to hear the difference
it makes no sense to use M/S on a synth only, I know people tend to use it everywhere, but even in a full mix, it is rarely necessary. I tend to use it myself only if I need to reinforce the bass in the middle. I don't see a situation where it can be useful as a creative tool. maybe in your case, you'd prefer to use the delay as a send, and treat it separately, which is different from M/S

Do it in your favorite DAW

Insert a pingpong delay after a mono synth
insert an M/S plugin with solo functionality after that (like bx_meter)
When soloing M or S, you still hear the delay in both

but if use insert a song in the sampler in HISE, you'll hear that the levels are separated and have no action on the other

Win Conway

@ustk
While i don't know HISE very well and haven't run the snippet, this comment makes absolutely no sense to me at all, in fact in most bass heavy music, the most common place to use M/S is very much synths and very much with EQ, it is very common to cut all bass from sides and leave only lows in the mids on most Neuro/Crush or Crunch 8s/Reeses etc etc, and most current bass music uses variants of those three sound design principals for their basses.

Also when you change mids, sides should not change at all, that defeats the point entirely of the process, mids and sides should be separated, if you run a mid EQ on a side channel you will hear nothing at all because it ignores the sides and only processes mids, but there are no mids.

How to make Mid-Side processing?

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