How to make Mid-Side processing?

[orange]

@ustk
I added a saw synth with stereo delay fx. So, delayed sound is side, saw sound is mid. If you look at the MID EQ unit, when you tweak eq, mids and sides are changing both. (actually only mids should be affected)
If you send this eq to sides, only stereo delayed sounds are affected, that we want that. But it is not working for mids. Am I doing wrong?

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[ustk]

it's a normal behaviour of the M/S processing, this is why a complex source is important to hear the difference
it makes no sense to use M/S on a synth only, I know people tend to use it everywhere, but even in a full mix, it is rarely necessary. I tend to use it myself only if I need to reinforce the bass in the middle. I don't see a situation where it can be useful as a creative tool. maybe in your case, you'd prefer to use the delay as a send, and treat it separately, which is different from M/S

Do it in your favorite DAW

Insert a pingpong delay after a mono synth
insert an M/S plugin with solo functionality after that (like bx_meter)
When soloing M or S, you still hear the delay in both

but if use insert a song in the sampler in HISE, you'll hear that the levels are separated and have no action on the other

[Win Conway]

@ustk
While i don't know HISE very well and haven't run the snippet, this comment makes absolutely no sense to me at all, in fact in most bass heavy music, the most common place to use M/S is very much synths and very much with EQ, it is very common to cut all bass from sides and leave only lows in the mids on most Neuro/Crush or Crunch 8s/Reeses etc etc, and most current bass music uses variants of those three sound design principals for their basses.

Also when you change mids, sides should not change at all, that defeats the point entirely of the process, mids and sides should be separated, if you run a mid EQ on a side channel you will hear nothing at all because it ignores the sides and only processes mids, but there are no mids.

[ustk]

Well, as I said, with a more complex material I totally agree, you say it yourself in bass heavy music, which mean a lot of material in common in L/R.
Here the ping pong delay is either full L or full R by definition, and has nothing to do with a complex material that have something in common in both L and R plus specificities in L and R.
The formula for ST to M/S is as simple as this:
M = L + R
S = L - R

@Win-Conway said in How to make Mid-Side processing?:

Also when you change mids, sides should not change at all, that defeats the point entirely of the process, mids and sides should be separated, if you run a mid EQ on a side channel you will hear nothing at all because it ignores the sides and only processes mids, but there are no mids.

We agree, it is the case here in my snippet...

[ustk]

Maybe I am wrong, but I think we are maybe not talking of the same thing
In a previous post, you said:

@Win-Conway said in How to make Mid-Side processing?:

Take your stereo path, pan both left and right channels to centre so that it becomes mono, this is your mid path, take the mid path and invert its polarity (Phase, been a while since i did any code at all, think it is signal * -1) and sum it with the original left and right channels and this will cancel out the mids and leave only the side path ;)
Now you have a mid path and a side path.

We agree for M, but not for S (unless I make a mistake)
you invert M and subtract it from L and R, which is not the same than L-R
you don't flip the polarity of R, but I do in respect with the M/S formula, maybe it has something to do with our perception of what we call M/S

[Win Conway]

Stereo to M/S
Your Mid is wrong.
It is Mid = Left and Right channels both separated and panned (Not balance) to Mono, you can achieve this with zero balance and zero width if your software only supports stereo channels.
Your Side is wrong.
Side = L+R phase cancelled by Mid.
This will give you a stereo input and two stereo (or summed mono if you wish) outputs, these outputs can be processed as you see fit, then recombined (summed) to a single stereo ouput.

I think you are talking about a stereo recording made specifically for M/S encoding, which is not the objective here at all.

[Win Conway]

If you can give me a day, I will be home and i can do a screen capture of it set up and running in basic routing in Reaper, and with MSEd, so that you can see the simple routing creating the M/S signals ;)

[ustk]

@Win-Conway Ok cool
Please if you can, just try the snippet to see if it works for you, because on my side it has exactly the same behaviour than in a DAW with M/S plugins,
For instance in Hise when I apply a saturation (just to have something obvious), M and S are treated independently, a simple gain module does the trick as well.

[ustk]

@Win-Conway said in How to make Mid-Side processing?:

Your Mid is wrong.
It is Mid = Left and Right channels both separated and panned (Not balance) to Mono, you can achieve this with zero balance and zero width if your software only supports stereo channels.

Unless I don't understand, it is the same than L+R

Your Side is wrong.
Side = L+R phase cancelled by Mid.
This will give you a stereo input and two stereo (or summed mono if you wish) outputs, these outputs can be processed as you see fit, then recombined (summed) to a single stereo ouput.

I agree, I disagree

I think you are talking about a stereo recording made specifically for M/S encoding, which is not the objective here at all.

Totally, this is why here, it can't be called M/S, it doesn't stick to the very definition of the M/S formula.
Now I see your point
But... If I have the same result in a DAW with an M/S plugin and here in HISE, I don't know where/how you can apply the technique you call M/S, except by doing your own routing?

[Win Conway]

Ok i think i see why this has gotten messy, you are talking about a Mid/Side recording, so Mid is on one channel and Side is on the other, I am talking about having the ability in an effect plugin to effect only the mids or only the sides from a normal stereo signal.

I think @orange wants what i am suggesting, Mid/Side separation for a standard stereo signal.

[Win Conway]

The definition of Mids and Sides is simple, Mids are the Mono signals, sides are everything else.

[Win Conway]

OK, going in circles, just wait till i do a screen recording to show it ;)

[ustk]

we both agree (I think)
but please try the snippet when you can and tell me if it works or not on a song for instance because here it works

[Jay]

@ustk it's working for me on a song. Its side is separate from the mid, if I can recall ch 5&6 are the side and 7&8 mid, but I'm not home now to be sure.

[ustk]

@Jay Glad it works for you
almost, the Mid is 7-8 and Side 9-10

[Win Conway]

@Jay rereading the tgread, im unsure why there would be any gain changing or encoding decoding, non of that is needed ?
I will look at the snippet as soon as i get chance, I dunno, maybe HISE cant do simple things like split a stereo signal in to two mono and pan etc, I just assumed this was as easy as doing it in a DAW.

[Jay]

@Win-Conway I haven't try it in a daw yet, just in HISE. But if you can take a look a the code and fix anything you think needs fixing will be good.

[Win Conway]

@Jay i will be home tomorrow and do a vid showing it done with just routing and phase invert ;)

[Jay]

@orange I implemented the Mid-Side into a plugin I'm building but when compiled there is no audio coming out, I can see is doing something in the meters but no sound. Any Idea?

[orange]

@Jay maybe a routing issue. Did you check the outputs?