Licence cost ?

  • Yes, thanks, I'll add some questions regarding add-on packs. The whole idea of add ons came up a lot lately, so I will definitely address this issue. The problem is that currently you embed the mapping data in the plugin while having the samples as monolith audio chunk. This prevents people from just taking your unprotected samples and load them into KONTAKT or whatever sampler, but it also disables the possibility to provide additional content without changing the binary. I am thinking about creating a specialized "add-on" format which is somehow protected (however I need to come up with a secure way of protecting non-executable content).

    The ballpark of the custom work will just be ordinary freelance developer rates (something along 50$ per hour). It can be used for code review, custom script stuff, or whatever - of course this doesn't mean I don't give any advice for free anymore. I am just thinking about other ways to create revenue in order to keep the license fees low while allowing me to eat and pay the rent 🙂

  • Can i ask about unprotected samples too ?
    I really would like to avoid a custom format and prefer to have the samples as wav on the hard drive, I know most people want protection for their content, however i am of the other ilk, I refuse to punish the paying customer, so i wish the samples to be wav in case they wish to use them on the timeline or in Kontakt as well as the standalone, yes i know i'm rare, but i make music myself and have often pulled samples direct myself in to Maschine or so on.
    I am not sure that would be possible in IOS though ?

  • You can of course just use wav files in your plugin - the monolithic audio format is not mandatory...

  • <quote>Lindon, so are you saying HISE should be extremely high priced so that the standalone VST market does not saturate like the Kontakt library market has ? <unquote>

    • I'm not sure how you get this from what i'm saying, can you point at the part where I say a high price is a good thing?

    There are a few problems i have with any of your reasoning.
    1 If the Kontakt library market is saturated, there is a reason, because they sell, people do not do things just for fun to saturate a market.

    • Again you seem to be mistaken, its not reasoning, its experience. So is the Kontakt market more saturated than the general VSTi market? Yes it is., and to be clear this is what I mean expressed as a non interpret able formula:

    (Number of Full Kontakt Owners/number of Full Kontakt instruments) < (Number of Customers who can run a VSTi/ number of VSTi products).

    So to plug-in some example numbers:

    50,000 Full Kontakt owners / 2,000 kontakt libraries = 25

    2 Million customers who can run a VSTi (DAW owners in other words) / 20,000 VSTi products = 100

    • You can argue about the numbers if you want, but EXPERIENCE shows me the ratios are about right.

    Oh and yes people do development just for fun, all the time.

    I repeat I've spent 10+ years doing this. If you release a product as a "Full Kontakt" product you will sell less than if you release the exact same functionality as a VSTi, again this isnt reasoned out its 10 years of doing exactly this. You sell about 25% of a VSTi option when you release a Full Kontakt Library,

    2 Keeping HISE licence cost high while maybe satisfying your need to have an unsaturated standalone market, also stops the HISE developer getting a ton of licencees, which is a cruel circle that will come back to bit those who wanted a high cost entry, either the licence cost will get so high it competes with NI, or the developer cant afford to keep developing, this is false economy.
    Where did I say this was my need? Please stop mis-quoting me.

    3 Are you really suggesting that the Kontakt library market is more saturated than the VSTi market in general, because if you are, then you are severely mistaken.
    Please see the answer above, yes this is exactly the case, based upon my experience of it. Please can outline your experience of shipping Fuill Kontakt instruments vs shipping VSTi instruments and how it differs from mine?

  • Meanwhile back at the questions...

    These look good Chris, add in something about add-on sample packs if you want but until you have a viable solution I'd caveat any question about them.

  • My experience has absolutely nothing to do with you at all, you think this is a pissing contest ?
    Your experience is your experience, and while your experience may be what you posed, it could be caused by various things, maybe the standalone VSTs that you have released where better than the Kontakt soundbanks ? Because if you are releasing a kontakt soundbank at the exact same time as a standalone and comparing sales, sorry, but that is flawed.
    Oh and thanks for telling the developer to caveat serious questions, very strange behaviour ?

  • Ok everybody calm down. It seems that you two have made different experiences regarding sales and arguing about the reasons why is pretty random.

    I still add the question about addons - its not rocket science to implement this and I am sure I'll find a way but I am interested in how many people want this feature.

    Edit: sorry Lindon just reread your post and it seems like this is exactly the thing you said 🙂

  • Don't worry about it if nobody else wants it

  • Any news at all on licence cost yet ?

  • Not yet, still thinking about it 🙂

  • OK cheers for the update 😉

  • Just found this project due to Computer Music magazine. I am very glad to see this particular conversation happening as I agree with much that is being discussed here. So any news on licence cost or are we still thinking about how to do this? The outcome of this topic will make or break my willingness to develop with this platform.

  • I am pretty much settled on the licensing scheme and different distribution channels of instruments that are built with HISE which I think will be covering both low budget projects as well as big flagship products in a more user friendly way.

    I won't spoiler too much publicly until it's really thought through and lawyer approved, but if you're really interested PM me and I'll talk something more about it.

  • @Christoph-Hart Any news on the current licensing scheme for commercial plugins made with Hise?

  • I confess I didn't read all the comments, anyway, at the moment I'm still in the learning stage about HISE and if I will complete the two projects (an only oscillator modules FM synth and a sample based instrument) for a company, the HISE commercial license cost will be bought from the company, just only need to know the exact price. Personally I like create free and open sources instruments. I'm developing with Kontakt for some time and though there's a large market, we don't forget that people are obliged to have Kontakt full (399 €), instead HISE allows to create, through XCode and Visual Studio, compiled plugins that people can launch on a DAW without use another plugin of 399€ cost further.

  • I understand that freelance developers could get some problems to spend an expensive license cost (as me for example), and if the company that is interested about create compiled plugins didn't contact me, I surely used HISE only to create free instruments. But if you think that to study C++ ( programming course) and so improve a very good skill with it to can create a virtual instrument without other tools than C++ (like Ivo Ivanov for example) is quite expensive including the Professional license cost of Visual Studio ( 641 €), well... By the way, I love use Kontakt, but creating compiled plugins is more nice 😉

  • @Flexinoodle said in Licence cost ?:

    It is far from a valid comparison, Kontakt offers huge market potential, why do you think there are so many library suppliers for Kontakt, 99% of which never licence anything from NI.

    There are many other companies that develope vst plugins directly using C++ and get their market too. EastWest for example selling their instruments that run on their own engine. Smaller companies as Sugar Bytes or U-He get very nice vst instruments compiled on C++. NI Kontakt gets an huge market because many companies made libraries for Kontakt, Spitfire Audio that is one of the most famous, if you noticed, started to compile their own vsts without Kontakt with Hans Zimmer Strings and now with the LAB series... so I think that though Kontakt still remains a lovely platform, the companies tend, however, to develop compiled plugins IMHO 😉

  • Unlickily, my programming skill is on Object Pascal and I have a very basic knowledge of C++ so the HISE framework is a nice chance to me about developing a compiled plugin.

  • @Christoph-Hart said in Licence cost ?:

    I am pretty much settled on the licensing scheme and different distribution channels of instruments that are built with HISE which I think will be covering both low budget projects as well as big flagship products in a more user friendly way.

    I won't spoiler too much publicly until it's really thought through and lawyer approved, but if you're really interested PM me and I'll talk something more about it.

    That's nice thing 🙂

  • @Christoph-Hart said in Licence cost ?:

    Yes, I most definitely want to adapt this licence model draft for smaller developers. Although I am not sure about the subscription model, I don't like this kind of dependency towards a company (like Adobe with their Cloud system).

    Also people really seem to forget the HISE Player (which is pretty easy because it doesn't exist yet :). It will be a commercial plugin with a low retail price that allows you to sell HISE libraries without any licence fees (but the end user will have to buy the plugin for a pretty low price, something like 20$). This is ridiculously less than a full KONTAKT price, which is needed by the end user to play your "free" KONTAKT libraries.

    Most people complaining about the high licence costs are small developers who just want to sell their plugin with a tight margin and that's OK.

    But honestly, I really don't understand why people are reacting so aggressively. I chose the open source way because I think it is great to give people without commercial intentions the best tools available and let companies that create revenue carry the financial recompensation (a scheme that is widely adopted in other parts of software development).

    And let me be clear: I certainly didn't spend three years of developing this engine just to mess it up because of a licensing scheme that is too restrictive so I am positive we will find a way that everybody will be happy.

    What about the Hise Player? When it will be avaiable?

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